MSU Extension Animal Agriculture

What's going to happen here is we'll have three lightning rounds, each with a different focus. The focus for this lightning round is on manure application, and we have three presenters. Each one will be given 10 minutes, and then we'll have time for question and answer after the third speaker. So let me introduce you here. I need to introduce you to our presenters here. We will first hear from Caleb Stewart. He'll talk about the what and why of nutrient management. Caleb is a local swine producer for the better part of 15 years, and he's a graduate of the Michigan State University. (group chattering) - Yeah. - [Audience Member] Go green. - [Audience Member] Go white. - After graduation, he worked as a CMNE, a CNMP provider, and a TSP for 10 years before returning to manage the family farm. We'll next hear from James DeYoung. He will talk about best practices for winter manure application. James is the owner of CJD Farm Consulting. He has, he's an experienced agronomist and farm consultant with 19 years of serving all kinds of farms on the certified tech service provider through USDA NRCS. And the goal of CJD Farm Consulting is to help keep farmers outstanding in their fields and not stuck in the office state of the paperwork. That's very commendable. And then our final presenter will be Monica Jean, who's with Michigan State University Extension, and she'll be talking about precision agriculture. Monica serves the lower part of Michigan with her emphasis on the Saginaw Bay Watershed area. Her position covers a large variety of crop production including corn, soybeans, edible dry beans, potatoes, integrated crops and livestock systems. Monica's involved in cover crops. That's probably where you've had your interaction with her. She's very active in that area. Soil health, nutrient management and cropping system research projects. So Monica is the Chair of the Midwest Cover Crop Council in the North Central Climate Collaborative. So with that, turn the floor over to Caleb, who'll be followed by James and then by Monica. - All right. All right. Go to work. Mic on? All right, thanks for having me this afternoon. Obviously they were scraping the bottom of the barrel when they hired and ask me to come talk. He kind of gave you the background of what I've done. I've worked with manure management pretty much my entire professional career from the time I got out of school. So kind of been in it almost since the inception of the regulations. But even more, even before that, I worked for a large dairy farm, and then went out to own my own swine production facility. So, like I said, a whole career about manure. I think that the role they kind of asked me to come here and serve is the way I would put it as translator. So I speak farmer and I also speak consultant. And to do both isn't always easy and I think that it's a very important role. So as a manure hauler, you're kind of caught in between the two. So if you're applying manure, whether it's for your own farm or as a custom application, essentially we're all here to get manure put on where we want it and where we need it. And ultimately that's what we're after. But they're always constraints on us from each side. And I really wanted to talk about what these crazy maps that you get handed or crazy rates might mean to you as a manure hauler. So I guess that's where I want to start. So retired CMP, it sounds worse if they say fire. I think (mumbling) retired. And tired is always in the farm work. A drawback to Natalie Rector for the four R's of manure management. But the best laid plans always happen in an office with snow on the ground. I know that as a producer, everything goes out the window about April 15th for us and manure's got to get moved. And it doesn't always get conveyed from those best laid plans that happened in the office in the winter with the perfect rate, the right plates, with all the correct setbacks, with all the right slopes and sensitive areas and tile risers. So I look at those and know that even in our small operations, so small family farm, everybody knows the fields. All that's said is where are we hauling? Oh yeah, that's Uncle Jack's back 40, field 102, I got that. What's the rate? Heavy, not so heavy, light. Yep, yep. And then that all gets changed by noon when somebody blows a tire and we can no longer haul to that field. So these best laid plans really, I think revolve around communication. So I pulled a map from my CMB, and obviously we know what we're hauling. We're hauling swine manure on our field. Rates. Rates are really important. I work with a lot of, or have worked with three different custom haulers and plus we've done it ourselves, and I consider myself the rate minimizer. So we're full disclosure, a full organic farm. Our only nutrient source is the swine manure, and it's probably two years that they're a client. When I say 5,000 gallon rate, I mean it. How are we going to accomplish that and why is it important? Does that mean just being cheap and saying, well no, we got to get across this many acres? Well sure, sure it is because every acre we're short, we got to go replace with a different source of manure. Whether that's litter, today litter or a corn crop for organic production's probably going to be a three ton rate. I'm going to guess it's going to be on 150 bucks an acre range for us. So when I look at my custom applicator and say 5,000 and walk away, I kind of hope that it's going to happen. But what I'm not always so great about is looking at the map and talking about sensitive areas and saying that only there's a ditch that cuts through there. Oh yeah, we tiled that field since that map there. There's a surface strider up by C. Oh yeah, C's 165 parts per million (mumbles). So that's a no spread zone. So I feel like that if we could get a pre-game meeting on before spreading, before any application, that's pretty important. What's May 15th? Sun's shining, tires are spinning, people are cursing and we're moving in a direction to move manure because we got a limited timeframe. But those are all very important things that when we get down to it, we have to accomplish. So as an applicator, everybody's got the latest, greatest full meter applicator that we can think of, right? Well, I'm here to tell you that it doesn't always work out right when we try to try to do the best rate. So this is just one of my manure tests, you know, we talk about the value of it when we figure out what we can do, whether it's a two year crop removal, so this is where we go to heavy or light. So heavy as nitrogen, light or medium is two year crop removal. And when the light is, oh my gosh, we're running out and we got to get across these acres before we haul it. But I want you to understand and feel the importance as a producer that what you do isn't just about moving gallons for me. It's about moving nutrients and fertilizing my fields. I hate that we call it just, you know, we got to move tons of gallons and look, we hauled a million gallons today. Aren't we proud? But if we didn't put a million gallons on where we needed it, you're talking about my bottom line as a producer and for my ability to hire anybody as an advocator. So I think that those rates and those meetings and those sensitive areas all have significant impact on me as a producer for record keeping, for crop production and all the things that are important to growing crops and ultimately make the whole cycle go around. So, you know, I put this out there as an example. This is actually one of near the top of our manure bit. And so it's a little lighter. We could probably go with a heavier rate right, and, thank you. And we need to look at that and realize how we're going to accomplish it. So with all the technology we have in spreaders and everything, I've been around enough of 'em to know that that's not the case. That it's not automatic, it's not, we're not spraying yet, right? So there's not a flow meter that's instantly adjusting always, even with the best systems. We have a full variable rate chrome flow meter manure tank, and I ask him to put down 6,500. Yes, at times when he is going to right speed, we are putting down 6,500. But ultimately that's there to record what happened, not necessarily affect how it happened. So I challenge you as advocators to really figure out how to determine exactly how you are going to make those rates come out to what a producer needs and in the right area. So before we always used to talk about sensitive area setbacks, right? So back on the last slide, we talked about the correct setbacks. How many feet, 100 foot setbacks from the surface water? How do we determine a hundred foot setback? Are we counting head land rows? Are we running a range finder? I mean like we used to have the old hunting rangefinder. Yeah, looks like, you know, 33 yards, got it. Crushed it. Some of those tools, we need a refresher course on the real practical application of manure application. It's not coat to field at whatever is the most gallons per hour we can produce with the pump. It is nutrient application in the right area at the right time at the right place. And without that, I won't be back. I can't continue to operate where manure is something we use to get rid of. This is a nutrient that's important to our farm in one of the largest ways. So time spread yet, right? So GPS covered area, all that rangefinder. So quarter mile field, it's 1,320 feet on long. You're injecting, it's 20 feet wide, okay? So to me that's a quick way to figure out what my rate is. If I made it across it and my tanks 6,000 gallons, we're putting on a half acre, that's a 12,000 or a 12,000 gallon rate. So quick map as an applicator to figure out how to put on these goofy maps we as producers or providers would hand you is you're where the rubber meets the road. Without you, this doesn't happen without the person that's actually driving it. So like I can do all the best laid maps of the world, and I can make the numbers look what like they're what they're supposed to do. But ultimately you are the application that has to figure out exactly how to get my manure to the right spot. And it's a very important question for me, and I think that not enough emphasis is given with producers, with farmers or even employees within a farm to this is a team and we need to make this go on to the right place at the right time. And we still have to record exactly how that happened because those are how we move forward. This is my spread. These are my excellent records, right? Who we drag line this, skipped that area, not spread that area, but then we ended up leaving, part of it, ran short on manure. Why'd we run short on manure? It was that high end test. We're drag line at 10,000. 10,000 gallon rate. For me most my primary application rate is 5,000 gallons per acre. That's what our target goal is. Two year crop removal, it's 5,000 gallon. So we're almost double that. This one field, it accounts for a million gallons of our production. I mean that's a big chunk of our swine production. And now we run the risk of running short on that. Those decisions that you as the application make, make for very expensive decisions on my end after we've run short. So we still have crop rotation, we're going to adhere to, but I want you to figure out real practical applications of how we're going to figure out what's a sensitive area and how we determine ready. I know that the flow meter says this, but I don't know how many times I've got to the end of the day and said how many loads we get. Oh, we add 'em all up and I says, okay, what are we hauling for an average load? 6,000 gallons. Yep, you put on 1.5 times my rate. That's our bag. Records wise are going to be what they are. Now we're going to be short on acres for nutrients and fertilizer. Plus we're going to be long on regulation line. So I want custom applicators to figure out number one, that a low rate is possible, and it's not just the name and game. Like if we have to pay more for lower rates, I kind of understand that if we're moving farther, wearing out equipment, whatever that is, but we need to know how to get down to the low rates and applying manure like a nutrient, not like it's a race to see who can get rid of as many gallons per hour or per day, whatever that works out. So that's my farmer ra-ra speech that is how do we speak consultant and perfect planning to practical application. Thank you. - All right. I'm James DeYoung, as they said earlier. I've been helping farmers with manure management stuff for about 19 years now. And today I'm going to be cover some of the basics, manure spreading in the wintertime. My goal is to give you guys a short list of some things to keep in mind and you know what not to do, what to do and just some things to think about before you do some manure application in the winter. So in Michigan, winter spreading of manure is allowed, but it does require some additional planning. If your client or if your farm is a CAFO, that means that permitted farms are allowed to apply. Right now they're allowed to apply currently under their current permit most of them. They're allowed to apply manure to frozen or snow covered ground without incorporation. But there has to be a demonstration of to show that that manure's going to stick around and it's going to stay there and it's not going to run off. And that demonstration identifies a whole bunch of different risk factors like the slope, the crop, the soil type, whether or not there's drainage. You may have heard of the MARI score, m-a-r-i. It's a spreadsheet. So we got to dump all this information into it, and it has to be done before we can do a land application. It's got to be done beforehand, and it takes into account all this information. We got to submit it or at least have it handy, includes the topographic map basically to highlight where manure could be running. And it's also important to know that some farms actually the new permit hasn't been issued but some farms under are under a different permit that actually restricts manure applications January, February and March. They may not spread or manifest transferring any manure off the farm. So make sure you ask that. Michigan has the Right to Farm Act for farms that are not CAFO's, and it also allows winter spreading, but due to the risk of the runoff, in fact that these nutrients are not being used right away, the GAAMPs, these generally accepted agricultural management practices say that, state that winter spreading is not ideal and probably should be like a last resort thing. These best management practices give some suggestions and things to keep in mind, such as the field slope, the distance to water and some other field specific items. They also point out that provisions must be made to control runoff and erosion. Which if you're going to be doing application to a field in the wintertime, I don't know, what can you do to prevent erosion? I don't know, it's a snowfield. They also recommend paying attention to the weather forecast and we'll come back to that in a minute. And to be afforded protection on the Right to Farm Act, farms need to follow these practices, otherwise they can be found liable for not doing the correct thing. So some things to think about. Who here has used one of these mineral spreaders? So you decided to conduct manure spreading in the winter or maybe one of your clients has, and they need to get it done. Well here's some things to consider that aren't necessarily in the GAAMPs or in the CAFO permit, but there's some things to be aware of. Manure, dark colors, make snow melt faster. When the sun comes out, any snow depth out there, you got manure sitting on top of it, that's all potential water that could melt. In the Midwest, every 10 to 12 inches of snow is about an inch of liquid water. And if you want to get manure worked into the frozen soil, you can't be using this thing or that one. You need horsepower, you need to have your tractor, bigger tires and you're dragging a spreader through the field now and that's not gotten to want to go anywhere either. So you just need bigger, bigger equipment. And you know what that heavy equipment and heavy traffic's going to do to your field and your soil structure. And there's the reason why that corn never looks very good at the entrance of the field. So again, you've got your injectors down into the soil, all right, you're incorporating it, you're working into the dirt, but what's down there? You're working up frozen chunks of soil, right? Can that liquid or can that ice absorb anything? Is it going to hold anything? Probably not. You don't put your Coke in a can in it or in a cup with ice and it disappears. It's going to melt. So there's these huge chunks of ice there under the ground now. And now you got a pool of liquid manure sitting in a field hiding underneath the snow and in the late winter you get a rain or something like that and there's that frozen layer of ice down there. Where's that rain going to go? There's nowhere for it to go. It's got to run off. Until that ice layer melts, we're stuck. So we're talking about applying that manure and then hoping that it's going to stay put for several months. Punxsutawney Phil, he only gives two month forecast, right? For six weeks, isn't it? So how good are you to be able to know that the weather's going to be holding for the next couple of months? If I were to spread today, is it going to stick around? Something else to think about is the perception of our farm neighbors. You know, a lot of times we don't want to think about it, but it is real. We need to be aware of that. So not only is there a high risk to the environment. There's a risk to the farm's reputation as well and our farm and our reputation as an industry. Winter spreading is a highly visible activity. It's very obvious to see where somebody's going, what they're doing. You can follow their tracks for a long ways, even if it's out in the back of the field. You can see, oh it looks like somebody who's, what are they doing next to their crane? And winter spreading perpetuates that myth that farmers just don't care about the environment. Look at it. What are they doing out there? Manure on the snow makes for really nice beautiful photos, right? It reinforces that myth again on a real hot button issue. And in certain areas of the state, those are the only photos that I see posted on the anti-CAFO websites. It's look at all these guys spreading all this manure around this frozen snow covered ground. It's terrible, isn't it? And now the neighbors go hmm, what's up with this farm? How come, why can't they plan ahead? Weren't they just spreading like two weeks ago when the weather was nice and now they're spreading again after and we got six, 12 inches of snow out there. Doesn't the farmer have manure storage? So there's this perception then that the farm is spreading at such a high risk time. Maybe they didn't do a very good job planning their manure spreading. Maybe they're spreading all through the fall, and now they're spreading again. Where's all this manure coming from? And I hear a lot of weird conspiracy theories out there about where this manure is suddenly coming from. All right, you guys know that guy, right? So when manure's properly applied using these best management practices, manure nutrients are the ultimate recycling program, right? Taking those nutrients out of the field, we're bringing 'em back, perfect. But that depends on proper manure application and it makes good sense for the environment and your bottom line. But the key to that is timing. And that can make all the difference. It's not too hard to spend over a hundred thousand dollars on a cleanup that didn't, if something goes wrong, there goes your bottom lines. You rushed a little bit, one of your drivers took a corner too quickly. Man, we would've just spent a couple more minutes, 15 more minutes, saving you $200, $200,000 that Geico, how that goes. And we're increasingly under the spotlight when it comes to water quality environmental stewardship. Personally, I don't recommend, you know, applying manure to frozen or snow cover ground. I think it's just too risky, and I don't think it should be a part of the plan. More of like a backup plan potentially if we absolutely needed to. It's, we owe it to ourselves and the rest of our industry to take this responsibility and plan ahead. So no planning, layering in (mumbles), don't be silly, don't just send it without a plan, right? It's the law. All right, so now getting on to some of the best practices after I scared everybody. All right, you still want get through, you still want to do some man application in the winter. Think about where you've seen or what you've seen during the spring melt in those worst case scenarios when it is raining, frozen, what if all that water running off was manure? Think about maybe doing, if you had to do winter application, maybe doing at a lower rate, maybe spreading it out a little bit thinner, that means there's less manure to run off of a specific field and it's spread out over a larger area. So no we're not putting all our eggs in one basket and because we're talking about frozen snow soil conditions, it's just really important to remember that any slope at all means that it's going to run off. Something's going to try to run off, it's not going to stay there. It may run just for a little bit. It may run all the way down into the neighbor's backyard, into their house, into their basement. So think about what's downhill now, too. Another best management practice is think about cover crops and growing crops which are a little bit more likely to utilize those nutrients as they become available. And a flat field may not have a runoff, but as Phil was talking about or somebody else, I guess, tide, piles are in the fields, and they could be running as well. So maybe consider setting aside a field that is a low risk that doesn't have water around it that you can get to. And if you don't get to it in the winter, that's great. That's your first field you can hit in the spring. But it's probably a good field to be spread in the spring. So we don't want to be spreading on slopes that are greater than six. But remember what I said, any slope really is going to run. Don't spread on a field with very little residue, silage and bean fields tend to have very little residue. But really when you think about it, there's not much that some corn stocks are going to do when stuff really starts running and flowing, but it's the best we got. And finally, if it did run off, what's the plan to stop it? You know, maybe some strategically placed old straw bales could make the difference, but in most cases there's nothing that can be done because you got 20 acres of snow melting all at once. So plan ahead if you can and plan for the worst. And if you didn't pay attention, don't worry, spring's coming. My buddy Phil (mumbles), so. - Well I am from extension, and because of that I've never delivered a presentation in a lightning pace. So I'm going to try to move very quickly through this. But I. Oh that was in the late, yeah, that's really funny. Okay, and I see my timer back there. So I want to catch the point real quick here. And that is there is a place on campus, Bruno Basil's lab, that can run precision maps for you for free, and I'm on a recording saying that it exists. And so if you don't remember anything else from my presentation today, remember that. It's a land grant university. We're here to serve you. And there is a lab that if you work with them, they can work off satellite imagery or off your precision data and create precision maps for you. You might say, well I can do that. Well these are used in a a very state of the art logarithm and I see you can tell that I don't work in the lab. That's going to give you back an idea of like combinations of profitability, areas that are vulnerable, areas that are not yielding for you. So stop using your nutrients in those places. So that's the take home. I caught to the chase 'cause who knows if I'm going to get through all these slides. All right, so my motivation behind sharing that is because I hear stories from the farmers I work with and that's the weather makes it difficult to farm. I'm sure you feel that right with manure. So we're buying bigger machinery, we're dealing with rain showers. I get to see these pictures. This actually comes from my own family's farm. So you can see we're not perfect either. And we've got big gullies, right? Or I don't know, a permanent retention pond in the middle of our cornfield. It's not supposed to be there. So we have these issues. That's a joke but that does rain. And so I just want to move quickly through what those trends are, how that impacts manure and then that technology solution. So what I'm going to cut to is this is what the weather is that we're feeling and what that is it gets really hot during the summer. We have an increase of temperature and you can see here by the darkness of the red is the increase of the temperature from like our baseline normal, which by the way is like the past, right? And this is like a projection for precipitation. And you can see here also in the summer, that's this corner. I probably should have pointed out that we go winter, spring, summer and fall is that you can see what are we? Dry. So we're hot and we're dry and then another periods of times it's, I'm sure you felt, we're not. We're cooler and we're like saturated. It's like how am I supposed to deal with this, right? Well overall we do have an increase of temperature. We also have an increase of frost free days. You think, oh I have more time to farm. Actually a lot of those days are pretty crappy so you don't. So we have to get really efficient with the time we have. Another hard thing we have is an increase of precipitation, but it's not just precipitation. It's the severity of the events. So we're getting these big gullies like you saw on our field. I'm sure my father would be so happy in showing these pictures. And so how does that make it really difficult for doing like manure applications? Anybody? Maybe I shouldn't ask a response right after lunch with a limited amount of time. But as we look to the future, I find this map to be very striking. This is what we're starting to look like as far as what our weather would be and what we're dealing with here in Michigan. So you can get an idea of what year, what Michigan would feel like. And so I took a guess since none of you answered. And that would affect Natalie's, right, take home messages of the four R's, and that might really affect the type of equipment that you're going to be using and a lot of, to do storage. So like everything, right? And then your sanity, we should have probably put that on there. And so what are my risks and what do I do to address those? There's a couple of ways to kind of determine. First at like a higher level for your farm or the people that you're working with. There are more higher level ways of going about evaluating risks on your farm. You can read some great literature like Laura Lengnick put out. You can pull from the resiliency assets that Laura describes here, like soil health, biodiversity, alternative markets, right? My plan, a quick plan for people to consider changing maturity groups. That might really help you get some manure in, too. Have some windows in there. Managing water is a really critical resource and that nitrogen, adding with protection. Using something like manure does actually, you guys probably know this, but there's like a slow release component to that, right? So really valuing that nutrient that you have in manure and then continuing to learn. But there is an assessment where you can get on and actually look at what your vulnerabilities are on the farms on your own farm or the farms that you work with and it gives you ideas of an adaptation. There's also a scenario planner that Nebraska put out that's for crop and livestock farms. So that would help you with many more applications. But why I bring this up, why? Well money, right? And so this is that fancy mapping stuff that I was talking about. So they either take satellite imagery or they take precision data that you've given them, and they can put together this map. They're stacking maps across years, across crops, and they're looking at yield and what it comes down to in the vegetative index. And so what that correlates to is also yield. It can look like something like this, a profitability map of corn from for seven years worth of corn data. And so it's like where should I be putting more manure on or less manure on? Where are those areas that are really compacted, not doing great, right? Not going to get a good crop there. Maybe I could grow something else that I could put manure on at better windows of application, right? Like a strategic planting of crops around what this map tells you. And so, oh look at that. Actually I moved quickly and even got a little early done there. Okay, well, so yes, that's just what I wanted to end with is for something for you to all think about is how taking some, taking it to the next level with some of this precision software. And it's not something you have to tackle on your own 'cause we have a lab on campus that can help you with it. And here's my information, and I think we're going to have questions. So I probably shouldn't say you got any questions. All right. (mumbling) I didn't want it to yell with this. Yeah, okay. 'Cause it did earlier. - How about if I stand over here? That should be. Okay, any questions for the three panelists? Yes sir. - [Questioner] Probably a question for Monica, or if not, anybody can answer it. How do cover crops help keep, how do cover crop keep the runoffs down? I mean if it's a late season rye, they got plant after corn silage, you know, there's only minimal growth on it I guess. And I know it better than nothing, but if it's not as bad as horsing around if you have to deliver it line. - Okay, keeping runoff using cover crops. - Oh wow. Yeah. So I want to preface this with talking about preventing runoff and then talking about preventing phosphorus from leaving because of the use of a cover crop. That's definitely a different conversation 'cause we have a frost free cycle issue depending on our temperatures with some of our cover crops and they can actually release a little phosphorus, too. So you want to think about phosphorus management a little bit more holistically, but to prevent, just like sediment leaving, something in the field is better than nothing. But also residue would be really good to have on there, too, and enough residue 40% to really get a good hold, that with a cover crop, even better. So I guess that's the easy way of putting it, especially in your vulnerability areas. But I just want to point out that the, you can have nutrients leave your field in other ways, too. And so you might want to consider that. - We farm pancake flat ground. Cover crops for us are for nitrogen uptake and scavenging and scavenger cover crops. Part of our rotation, but as far as erosion goes, it's not really our issue. But legumes they're cheap and full of nitrogen. - What they said, the experts. I don't actually farm. I just tell people what to do. (audience laughs) - So we're all (mumbles). - Question here, sir? - [Speaker] Yeah, not a question, a comment. I wanted to leave off from waterways (mumbles). Lake Erie, (mumbling) land, continuous corn (mumbling) like low cover crops, nitrogen, manure and but they're following a permitted plan. And my question to you, are we ever going to clean up Lake Erie with that? I mean the erosion, the surface erosion. I'm not talking just waterways. (mumbles) erosion is (mumbles) possible. - So the question is? - [Speaker] Are we ever going to clean up Lake Erie as well our permitting process? I'm not saying, I'm pro ag. Allow, never doesn't account for those things that were mentioned. - Okay, so you're saying that there's some holes in, in CMPs and that may affect the water quality in Lake Erie. - [Speaker] I would challenge you that I'd rather winter spread, a certain amount than leave my ground bare, subject to eight months of rainfall and storms. - Okay. - Yeah, I think it kind of brings it back to what we were saying at the beginning. It's all the details have to come together. You know, we, I'm a consultant. I'm telling farmers, okay, here are the rules, but the farmers and the applicators are the ones out in the field. They're the ones that see what's going on every day. I'm out there maybe once a year, and the farms really know their land best. And I mean this is your, this is our soil, this is our nutrients, this is our organic matter. It really, we should all be paying attention to that as members of the agricultural industry because yeah, it's going down into our lakes, it's going down into our streams and rivers and every farm I talk to, they're environmentalists. They enjoy fishing, they enjoy hunting, they enjoy all these things that we take for granted as our natural resources. And they're at the top of that. They're taking care of that. And yeah, we need to do a better job of things sometimes. And sometimes it's just a matter of calling it out to the folks that are, that are on that land. Maybe it's just a matter of neighbor to neighbor going over there and saying, hey, I dunno, you notice that all this is running off, and it's in the ditch. It's a lot better coming from you than coming from a regulatory agency I think. - I'm not as pessimistic as you are, Tom. I would think that manure as a nutrient is going to help fix this problem going forward. It's an economic question and I don't think farms are going to treat manure as the byproduct. I often laugh that bacon is a byproduct of pig manure at my farm. And I say that in jest, but the only reason I got into contract for swine finishing is for manure. It's not the rich and fame of contract swine production. So I think that as some of this scary discussion that you're talking about in the rising costs of inputs means that this is also, it's going to become a new, a revenue stream for farms and as soon as we start treating it like a revenue stream, nobody wants to even risk the idea that it's going to run off. So the economic side of that is going to really help push that going forward. I don't see it going away. We were just kidding at lunch about getting manure from a dairy and he says you don't have to pay for it? And I said, no, I'm very fortunate, and where I live in a nutrient rich environment, but I think that has the most potential to change the way that is not the regulation side. - [Speaker] I totally agree with it. I think we need to put (mumbles) waste if resourced-- - I agree. You everything you want to add Monica? Okay. - I don't think so, yeah. - Any other questions? Or comments? - Actually we will figure it out. I did want to say that. I wanted to on a positive because we have to, right? It's our water. So we're going to figure this out. - Cleet. - [Cleet] We got three components here. We got mid here, we got consult, and we got the producer, and I think we are a little lacking on the landowner because the (mumbles) land and rented land, and the landowner has some say about what happens on his land. And so we can talk to the producers as much as we want, but when the landowner says, I'm not going to rent you anymore because, right, that has that (mumbling) as well. So you want to change the practices, the landowner can be the fourth component (mumbles). - Good point. - I just rented a farm, just signed a lease on it two weeks ago, and I had an opportunity to rent this several, a decade ago probably. And one of the concerns that the landowner had was manure. Knew that we were large livestock producers and her comment was, well I thought you hauled the manure all the time. And I said, well this is a six year crop lease, and it says I'm likely to see manure on your farm two days in six years, maybe if it takes us longer, four days. Two times in six years judging by my projected six year crop rotation. So I agree with your statement and I think that moving that manure farther out, like I said, as a crop nutrient source, not a waste stream has all the potential for that. But it's, we all got to work as a team. - Yes sir. - [Speaker] Yeah, I just kind of reply to your statement as well. That kind of leads into the benefit of doing something like meat, right? If your farms meat verified, you have the the benefit of saying, hey, we're doing all, we're taking all the right steps, you know, we're doing everything humanly possible to control this and do it accurately with best practices, I think that's a huge selling point for the program itself to (mumbles). - Agreed. (audience member mumbles) Oh, oh, oh yes, okay. Go ahead, Dan. - [Dan] Comment with a question for I think it's Jimmy Day-why-oong, am I saying that right? (speaker mumbling) - It's always got to be one joker in the crowd, right? - [Dan] It's me. First off, (mumbling) Punxsutawney Phil thing, that was really cool, but could you clarify I guess on the winter spreading. You said you don't recommend it. Are you referring to the time of the year on the calendar or the condition of fields? - I am referring to conditions in the field. We do have, it's Michigan, and the calendar is yeah, not necessarily accurate for that. It's going to depend on a year by year thing. There are some farms that are currently regulated under a new type of eco CAFO permit and they may not spread during January, February, or March. And that is the permit. One of the versions is being contested right now in legislature or not legislature, in court. Personally I'm looking at manure being applied on a field that is going to, you know, that's covered with snow. I just think the risk is too high in that situation. I also know, and I work with some farms down by Three Rivers. I work with some farms up in Cadillac. The field, the farmers up in Cadillac, they got a completely different situation than the farmer down on Three Rivers where the guy says, I mean we get, yeah it's six inches of snow but it's gone tomorrow and it's all sand. So he can get out there the next day if he really wanted to in spread manure. And every field is different, too. Your ground is different than the ground in Cadillac and the ground and Three Rivers and the ground over in the thumb. It's, and that's where that manure application risk index comes in handy because it is a site specific tool then that gets run and basically highlights whether that field is more likely to have issues with runoff or leeching of nutrients in the wintertime. So if you are interested in doing winter application, you are allowed to do it under the current rules. Most farms are allowed to do it under current rules. But it's not something I'm going to recommend and say yes, go for it, do it, do it, do it, because I think the risk is just too high in a lot of situations unless you're going to look at that individual field, right, and make the decision on a site specific, at a site specific rate. And all those things are different, you know? 20,000 gallons of manure on two foot of snow on a field is probably not a good idea. But if you got some bedded pack that you need to get rid of in the barn and you're just going to put a spreader load on on a field that's nice (gentle guitar music) and flat that just had a light dusting, completely different situation.