MSU Extension Animal Agriculture

All right. So again, I'm Laura Campbell with Michigan Farm Bureau. For those of you who know me, I am a giant nerd. I'm a Trekkie. And so I am so excited to do the technology session because we're going to be talking about some of those solutions and some of the ways forward to solve some of these problems that we've got, and we're going to be welcoming up to our stage and to our panel Dana Kirk, and the folks from Dykhuis Farms, and we'll have remotely presenting Glen Arnold. So if you guys want to make your way up here to have a seat at the table, I'll start through our introductions as you guys are making your way up here. Dana Kirk is an associate professor in biosystems and agricultural engineering at Michigan State University. He's also a licensed professional engineer in the state of Michigan. He's the undergraduate program director in biosystems engineering and the faculty supervisor of the MSU South Campus Anaerobic Digester. Folks from Dykhuis Farms who are here. Dykhuis Farms is a farrow to finish hog producer. They raise corned soybeans and wheat in Ottawa, Allegan and Van Buren Counties. Joe Dykhuis is the president. Mitch Witteveen is the operations supervisor, and Anthony Kammeraad is the crop production supervisor. Glenn Arnold with the Ohio State University Extension, he was unable to be here with us in person. He's recorded a presentation for you all to watch, and once that presentation is done, he's going to be able to join us remotely for the question and answer panel. So you guys will still be able to ask questions and make fun of him for being with the Ohio State University, if you want to. Not required. But Glen conducts field research on using liquid livestock manure to replace commercially purchased fertilizer on wheat and on corn. Applying manure to growing crops brings an in-season window for manure application and results in less manure being applied in the fall months. As livestock producers strive to make better use of the nutrients in the manure, they're hauling manure greater distances. So capturing the value of those nutrients in the manure can help pay for the additional manure hauling expense. So we'll hear from him about that as well. So we'll go ahead and get started and we'll ask Dana Kirk to come up and give us a quick talk. - Good, thanks for having me. I feel a little outgunned. I've got three in the next presentation. I'm by myself up here, so pressure over here. So talking a couple minutes about anaerobic digestion in Michigan, more from the dairy perspective than anything else, but Michigan State, we've had a digester operating continuously since 2010. So we're kind of well-versed in the operation of those systems. What's happened, anaerobic digestion is the process of actually mechanically making cow parts. So it's our goal to do the things with cow manure that we really don't want to do from a climate change perspective anymore. We're going to take that manure, heat it back up to a 100 degrees, hold it in tanks for, you know, 15 to 20 to 30 days depending on the design and produce methane off of that, which we're going to use as natural gas. We can make electricity. The market today is selling it as natural gas for vehicles. So that's what's driving the demand in Michigan. Looking at the state of Michigan, we currently have, I think about nine operating digesters in the state. For the past decade, we've had five on farm, and so we've actually added four in the last two years, and we've got several more that are under construction today that will be commissioned in 2023. And then there's probably another dozen that are going to be set to go online in 2024. So it's an evolving technology as far as being adapted in the state of Michigan. Primarily on large dairies today, again, we don't have a lot of... The swine that we have is an under floor storages primarily. And so it's not suitable really for digestion, because by the time we get that manure out of storage, it's pretty much spent by the activity that's happening while it's under the barn or under the pits. So dairy manure is collected daily. We're a big dairy state, and so that is our goal for anaerobic digestion in the state of Michigan, primarily on dairies. And today, the economics are really at the 3000 cow level and above. And so we do have a couple of smaller digesters that are being developed. There's some concepts around a community digester. A couple of those are being floated in the state. Again, you know, as custom applicators, you know how hard it is to work with one dairy farm, swine farm at a time. Imagine putting a digester together where you're going to bring 10 or 20 farms together. There's a lot of, you know, personalities that have to be melded together to make those work. And so the systems we have today are primarily on-farm and on-farm focused. We'll see if some community systems get built in the near future, but right now the plans are for just single farm digesters for the most part. What's driving this are three things. One is the renewable fuel standard, which has been around for a decade plus at this point, drove the ethanol industry, originally. And now as that kind of legislation ages on, it's transitioning from one type of fuel, a starch based fuel to more of a cellulosic fuel, which is what we consider manure to be a cellulosic fuel source. So the renewable fuels standard at the national level, we've got a lot of low carbon fuel standards at the state level with California being the flagship. And what that standard does, it says we're going to reduce in California vehicle emissions by 10% by a certain date. And so by 2030, I think for California. So what they're doing is they're replacing diesel fuel and gasoline with other things, ethanol, renewable diesel, biodiesel, and renewable natural gas. And when we look at the energy sources, if we have more time and we want to get really the chemistry of it, we could, but all of those fuels are plus carbon. So that means we're always going to be emitting carbon as we make renewable diesel or biodiesel or ethanol. RNG, renewable natural gas from swine manure and dairy manure is carbon negative. We are actually taking more carbon out of the atmosphere by making those fuels by today's standards than we are putting out into the atmosphere. So those are the gold standard fuels. If I'm Amazon or UPS or FedEx, if I want to cut my full fleet emissions, it's going to be much easier and much more effective for me to buy fuels that are carbon negative to bring my cap down than it is to buy a whole lot of lower carbon fuels. So that's kind of the trick of the economics of it. There's also voluntary carbon reductions and greenhouse gas emission reduction targets. Our utilities in the state, both DTE and consumers as well as the state of Michigan, have made commitments to cut their emissions from carbon. And so those are markets that are developing. These three things as well as natural gas are what we used to create revenue for digesters. A year and a half ago, you were looking at selling renewable natural gas from a dairy digester in Michigan for probably $65 a million BTUs. What you pay at your house is probably 10 to 15 today. Today that market's come down quite a bit. There's been a lot of softening, and so you're probably looking at around $40 in the BTU today. So the values of change as we've seen the world change in the last 18 months or so. It's not a silver bullet. And I think James was taunting me. He sent me this article a couple weeks ago. This will not solve all our problems and we can't create enough biogas or enough renewable natural gas from cow manure, food waste, human waste to offset what we use. But it's part of the solution. And we do need to remember this is just a stepping stone and it's one of the steps in the process, but it will not resolve and change all the fortunes we have. Quickly, and again, this is more for producers. If I had a 3,500 cow dairy, I'm going to generate roughly 250 to 300 million BTUs a day. What that's going to equate to over a year is about 700,000 gallons of gasoline. So pretty significant quantity of fuel that we were going to produce off of a dairy farm of this size. Project cost today. And again, I just updated these a couple weeks ago, so they're pretty accurate. We're going to be in the 20 to $30 million range. Again, two years ago we would've been in the $15 million to maybe $18 million range. So there's been some significant cost increases with these. I'm going to spend about 2 million a year to operate this system. But I've got revenues that are going to be in the three to $6 million range. Again, just based on the fuel values today. And so, yeah, pretty good returns. Now, not as good as they were a year 1/2 ago. And so some of the interest from third party investments has waned quite a bit, but there's still a number of players in the market that are looking to invest money in these systems still today. So value off-takers, again, there's a lot of articles here in the last 24 hours 'cause all the big fuel companies or all the big oil and gas companies have announced their earnings the last year, and there's been a lot of money made in oil and gas, and they're obligated parties. So they have to buy this fuel as part of the federal level, also the state levels. And so, those big oil and gas companies are the primary investors today, putting some of that money they've made over the last year into play. Again, the value of a project on your farm is going to vary dramatically based on the size of your farm, the proximity to a gas pipeline or connection, what you're using for bedding, how you're handling manure today. All of those things will factor into, are you a CI negative 200 or a CI negative 400? What part of the country you're in. You're in the south, you're going to have a higher value because you're warm all year round. We're not producing a lot of methane today in our manure storages, because they're probably crusted over this morning. So a lot of factors that go into to developing the economic models. Public and private investment is still there, though again, it's a smaller party than it was a year ago, but it's still a significant opportunity. What it means to the dairies is new investment, revenue diversification. So again, there's new sources of revenue coming into the communities, job creation. And again, this is through construction and then ongoing operations, because these are technical systems. There's environmental concerns that can be mitigated here. So we are doing emissions control. We're producing renewable fuels. We're setting up manure for future nutrient separation. So again, not trying to put anybody out of business here, but if we don't have to apply manure in a liquid form and we could apply in other ways or apply better nutrients, it may not be a bad thing. So it is kind of looking at how do we become part of the solution and can step forward in that spot. When you think about applying manure from a digester, there are a couple things to consider. One, compositionally, it's changed. We've taken out some of the carbon. We've taken out about a third of the carbon. There's still 70% or 65% of the carbon remaining, but it is a little different. It may be a little bit thinner. The other part is we've taken nutrients and we've moved them from the organic form to the inorganic form. And so, we've actually maybe shortened the window at which nutrients are released or made more nutrients available early on in the process. So there are things to consider as a manure applicator as it's related to it. The dairy industry's pushing this very heavily as part of their net zero initiative. Again, these grand goals to really address climate change and carbon in the atmosphere as we move forward. Their goals, though, go beyond just greenhouse gases, but it's also on water and improving water quality. So, you know, those next steps that come after digestions are going to be focused on how do we partition nutrients and do a better job putting nutrients in a form where they can be applied. So with that, I'll hand off the baton. All right, we're going to try to jam, like, 20 years of innovation here into five minutes. So at Dykhuis Farms we have continually tried to improve our ability to put manure where we want it, where it needs to go, and when we need to do it. Logistically, moving 35 million gallons a year or so means we need to utilize all avenues possible to apply. So pipelines have solved many of the logistical issues that we've had. That's the best way to solve Josh's picture of a drag line going across a creek is to just bore underneath it with a double sleeved pipeline. We have a few different pipeline systems. Our big one that we're going to talk about has evolved, again, over almost 20 years. We started with just a pipeline intended for manure only, to get manure from farms to fields to dragline from it. Well, then we added additional storage that was not on the same location as some of the farms. So we built a 20 million-gallon lagoon, which adding storage increases your ability to optimize manure utilization. Then we figured out we could actually irrigate that manure off from that slurry store. We also, we just happened to find irrigation wells along the pipeline that we're able to use during the off season, so we're irrigating water and manure through the pipeline. And so we built this main network out to about 15 miles of pipe. So I don't know how good you can see this picture, but there's red lines all through here. There's several miles covered, but we've connected, was it, like, 13 center pivots. 900 acres of land covered by irrigation and then multiple locations, manure storage locations. So. Yeah, we've learned a lot of lessons from this. It's not foolproof, that's for sure. And when we initially started it, we didn't have any clue it was going to turn into this. So I'm going to turn it over to Mitch to talk about some of the adaptations we've made over time. A few of the physical parts of it. - So when I started, we had a branch network throughout the village and it was very hard to go from place to place. We know where we wanted to go with the manure. We know where we were starting, but we energized a lot of the pipeline that we didn't have to. So underground valves were able to isolate a lot of systems, making more straight runs to the satellite vent into the fields. We needed to reduce water hammer. We had a lot of events where our pipe was splintering because we were energizing the pipeline too fast. I worked with a couple engineers who said, you need to get rid of your air and slow down the speed of your manure or water, whatever you have in your pipe. We ended up adding air vents and yeah, trying to reduce that water hammer as much as possible. We've added more physical pressure gauges at each riser. This was trying to figure out where we have pressure, how much pressure it is you're pumping from one elevation, going to another elevation, what's happening to the water, what's happening to the manure? When we started pumping liquid manure, screening it off of the satellite vent, pumping it to pivots, we started plugging the pivots with hair. That was a problem. Not really one we saw, but we put screens in each pivot so that we could be able to capture the hair from the pigs and clean out tips as often. We've since moved on from mechanical pressure gauges to develop and to work with a company that's allowed us to monitor the pipeline remotely. That's helped us out a lot. That's something Anthony will talk about next. - Yeah, so we've used (indistinct) technology ways of doing better at using the pipeline to spread manure. One was the AutoCAD drawings you saw. So we've used that to show accurate locations of where the pipe goes. So that can be passed down to the next generation's new employees. So instead of saying, yeah, I think that pipe goes here or there, we can accurately see where the pipe is and it makes it easier to monitor, you know, the exact locations of where to ride. We have someone spreading the pipeline every time we're spreading just to make sure no leaks. So we made those drawings in AutoCAD. We have controls on our pumps for when we're pumping out of the lagoon where someone can pull up on their phone. Whoever's watching it, they can start and stop the pump from their phone. They can increase and decrease pressure to slow it down or speed it up. And then, like Mitch said, we have the pressure sensors on key spots in the pipeline. Like end of the line where we can tell if the water hammer pressure's getting too high or we can say, hey, this ground valve was supposed to be shut over there. Why is there pressure? And we can go check out those things. This is the website. This is our account. It's got, it shows locations of pivots. So you can also see if you're in tall crop. You can't always tell which way the pivot's facing. Gives locations of that, and then pressures all along different spots on the pipeline. So someone, anyone on our team can pull this up on their phone and monitor it and keep an eye on things. It's increased efficiency and just allows us to do a better job. We also have a test in one of the sites. There's a float for the manure pit level, which it can show you that remote link too. - So we will run multiple pivots in different fields at the same time with the manure. So it used to be a three-person operation to run the pipeline. One person running it all the time, one person sitting by the pump for emergency shutoff and then another person managing pressures and volumes and stuff. So we've been able to integrate that whole system together where one guy for the most part can irrigate 17 million gallons almost by himself. Not every situation can justify this kind of investment, but this is the way that works with our system to master some of these small things where, you know, I can't drive somewhere or have someone standing at all 20 or 30 pressure valves that we have, but we can scroll through it on a phone and we can have alerts trigger if they spike. So that's drastically reduced our problems. And you can have problems with bells under the ground, especially if you've got pipelines with manure where, I mean, you turn it until it's tight shut. But if there's something down in there that doesn't put it down, it's really nice to get a message that, oh, the pipeline is energized where we didn't think it was energized. We can go respond to that really quickly. And another thing, we've found that it's pretty easy to actually close off valves and leave a section of pipe pressurized because it was pressurized, and we closed the valve. So that's not a great idea either. So you can improve the accuracy of utilizing your SOPs for operating order to just de-risk the situation. So I think that's all we have. - Hello, this is Glenn Arnold. I'm a professor and field specialist with Ohio State University. I'm going to talk about a project that Chris Shoup, a graduate student for Dr. John Fulton that Ohio State University conducted over 2002 and 2003. This is the outline of Chris' presentation. We're going to talk a little bit about this project, talk about some of the stratification we found, some of the as-applied maps that we were able to take away and just talk in general about some of the strength, what we think we found. Currently we do a lot of manure application in Ohio, of course. We either use a drag hose with larger volumes and surface or inject it or we use a tanker. Tankers are much more common with many farmers who do their own. But again, everybody's got their own thing to work on. What we do is we take our soil samples that we look at. We look at the crop removal rate of our corn or two year rotation and that tells us how many nutrients we need. And from that, we can adjust our pump speed and ground speed to get the proper rate. The point that we want to make here is that you're depending on a pint or two of manure collected for a sample to base your average analysis for the entire half million to five, $6 million manure storage field facility that you're emptying, much like a farmer (indistinct) depends on that pint or two of soil to represent a hundred acre field. So again, the more accuracy, the better. So we already get coverage maps from some of the commercial applicators. They tell you how evenly the manure was applied in gallons per acre, but we really don't know what the content is. The purpose of the farmer and our purpose too was to empty the pit because at the end of the day, that's what everybody wanted to see. Both the commercial applicator and the farmer and Chris Shoup. And then we wanted to get some as applied information. To get the data, Chris did what they call grab samples. So the equipment was set up in a way that he could pull manure samples during the application process. And he would do that every 15 or 20 minutes depending on which year he did that. And at the same time, the NIR sensor would collect literally thousands of samples in that 15, 20 minute period of time. And the NIR sensor was bolted to the bottom of the toolbar and a hole had been drilled in. There was a plastic covering put on, and then the sensor shines a infrared light into that manure stream flow and comes up with its information. Now this happened to be at John Deere 3000. Other companies make similar equipment. It's wide widespread use in Europe, but they're just getting to the point where they're beginning to calibrate them for use in the United States. And there's always a variability in manure. The sensor, you could click a switch whether you wanted to do swine manure or dairy manure, which was great. But there are many times farmers combine manure. So there are always challenges with any of the sensors. Plus if you compare our manure in Ohio versus perhaps Iowa manure, I know for a fact that in our swine manure, their levels of nitrogen are about twice what ours are here in Ohio in their swine finishing manure samples. So calibration of the sensor to catch that. So the samples were collected primarily either when we were sidedressing corn in the spring or when manure was being applied in the fall to empty out pits. Total of eight or nine pits that he was able to get samples from. This is a example of the collector that we had, excuse me, for Chris to get the samples from. This is an example of the collection system that showed pretty quickly not to be large enough because it would plug. So we lost the data there. We went back, put a larger pipe and a larger on-off valve on there. And then when Chris would pull his samples, he would run up to the applicator as he was going across the field, bleed out some manure for a bit, then pull a sample, record the time that the sample was pulled and then later he would compare that with the sensor for analysis. And to do that you had to have plenty of manure sample bottles lined up in advance. So he did that. He had little four-wheeler he could run out to the field, do his work with. Then as soon as we had 'em pulled, he would put them in a cooler, get 'em cooled down and then the lab was only about an hour's drive away to get most of what we wanted to get done. This is one of the example, one of the first things that we came up with, and that is just a example of the phosphorus. So on the left hand side is pounds per acre of phosphorus. On the bottom line is minutes. So 60 minutes in an hour, you can see that we went anywhere from two to three to four hours with some of these samples that we pulled. What you can also see is, I'll use these two at the bottom. They were very consistent, low on phosphorus, five pounds and 1000 gallons until after about two hours, and then they shot up pretty dramatically in the final hour of pumping. The red line here is for example, one that started out high and then it gradually fell and started even out a little bit. And then there's a couple in here, there's this one here that's a little more consistent. But that showed, here's two three, four, there's five samples here. And that showed a variability and it grab samples over two, three-hour period of time. On the right hand side is total nitrogen in those grab samples. I'm happy to see there's a little more consistency. But again, you could see a little more nitrogen to start and then dropping on some of those. Very few of 'em went higher toward the end. But here's an example. So again, that's the data that we got from the grab samples from some of Chris' work. And this is P205 and nitrogen in this one. He also wanted to look at the impact of agitation. The agitation of manure pits is challenging because of the possible gas release, the death of pigs, danger to humans, death to cattle. So we've got to be conscious of that. So this is just an example of an agitated pit. The consistency of the P205. On the right-hand side is consistency of the P205 in a non-agitated pit. And again, we saw this a little bit earlier, but you can see a lot more variability on the right-hand side than what we have on the left-hand side. So again, it's always going to be some gap. The NIR sensor. It's called, it's near infrared spectroscopy. Available and used in Europe quite a bit. It's an in-line sensor. As I said earlier, it shines a light right on the manure stream. Most of the samples that we were running were, we were doing somewhere between 1200 to 2000 gallons a minute on our dry hose systems. The estimates we could get were everything from a total nitrogen, the ammonium portion, the phosphorus potash, and of course, dry matter. This is just a picture of what the sensor would look like in the cab of the tractor. For many of you who have been in the commercial mineral application business for a long time, you get a lot of data. I think this applied nutrient map down here on the bottom right-hand side, a lot of people have that. That's really, really nice. What the sensor allow us to do is is to see how much phosphorus and nitrogen was applied as we went across the field. But you can see some of the other things down here. They have a column here for a limiting factor, which we don't use here in the United States at this time. And then estimate of the product was being put on as it went. Gallons per minute. For all of us who have used chrome meters and things. Now this is one of the as-applied maps. We've got one of nitrogen here on the left. We've got the volume, gallons per acre on the right and then on the bottom right, we have phosphorus. So I think Chris has got a little more detail on these things. Let's see if I can go into it. Yep. On this one, it's as applied in gallons per acre. You can see that the orange is lighter rates. Looks like 4,000 gallons per acre. The heavier rates are 10,000 gallons per acre. Again, depends on your manure type. If you are a dairy farm, 10,000 is a common number because of lower manure nutrients. If you're a swine farm, perhaps you would be a little bit lower on a five, 6,000 gallons per acre rate, depending on what the nutrient content in the field. But I look at the one that I'm circling with the cursor, I would say very consistent, very even application across the fields. You can see sometimes when they had to slow down or speed up or maybe when they were finished in the field, you can also see the crossover. You can see where that was done in the field as all commercial applicators do with drag hoses. When you look at some of the other fields, again, pretty even application in some of them, like that. I would point out down here on this one here, this was toward the end of the application process when the manure was thicker in the bottom, it was more difficult to keep up their gallons per acre or gallons per minute through the line. So they had to slow their equipment down and that's why you have quite a bit of variability toward the end. And it's also something that you can talk about with a commercial applicator, that if you are getting a lot more product on certain parts of the field, that the following time when manures applied with the drag hose, perhaps we'd want to go the opposite direction so that we get extra applied in other parts of the field. This one is a phosphorus map. You can see down here at the bottom, 80 pounds up to 290 pounds with a range. This one was pretty consistent. As I look at this, again, pretty consistent depending on what the farmers were looking for. And again, the commercial applicators are looking at the size of the field, the total volume that they want to apply to cover the whole field. So again, you can see the one again with the higher rates where the manure would stick toward the end. But you're pleased to see those types of consistency. And then this would be the other one that we've got. I think this was the nitrogen map. I don't see the legend down here. But again, you can see here's one, we're a little bit heavier, a little bit lighter on that part of the field. You can see that one field down here where we did toward the end. But these as-applied maps can give us a clue as to how much actual nutrient that we're putting on a field. If we get the calibration down the way it would be, we would also be able to do a better job of putting it on the parts of the field that need more nutrient. And this is a sample of what Chris was looking for. If you look at the gray line or black line that goes vertically or horizontally across here at an angle, the closer your dots are, your grab samples are to that line, the closer the sensor aligns with what the grab sample showed. So here's an example. We have pit one and pit two over here on both of these. And pit two, the red squares are pretty much right on the money. So you felt like the sensor was doing a pretty good job on that pit. On the grays here, from pit one, you can see they're offset somewhat. A little further away from that line than we'd like them to have. So if the sensor could be calibrated so that those come over to that line, then that's the whole idea of calibration and running manure samples through and trying to come up with an accurate calibration curve. The one on the right, we look at total nitrogen. That one on the left had been phosphorous. Again, they're grouped pretty closely. So if the sensor were adjusted so that that whole cluster moved over onto that line, then you would say that's pretty good, you know. A sensor would be doing what we wanted to do. Takeaways. Just that there's a lot of variability in the manure as you go across the field. We've seen that before, but it's just nice to see it put out on a map and somebody had put the time and effort to put the grab samples alongside that. Chris would argue that site-specific management is the long-term key to success. We think that's the direction we'll probably see manure application go in future years. And that type of feedback can really help. So if a farmer or a livestock producer can see how that manure went on the field, then he can see perhaps that to make changes, whether that's agitation, whether that's putting manure on a different direction the next time. Our long-term goal is to have a crop that looks like this. A consistent cornfield and... - [Speaker] For the Ohio State. Was there any ground truthing to the yield? So you have application differences and testing differences along. So you know where that is. Was there tissue testing, soil analysis done after application to see if it mimics what you thought you were laying down per rate? - No, we didn't. And each year we did about five fields of about 100 acres or so in size. So no, we didn't. We didn't go out with tissue tests and follow ups to check and see if what we caught was accurate. No. - Yeah. - [Speaker] For Dykhuis. On irrigating liquids to find the mark, most of that comes from an outdoor (indistinct). Are we talking under floor for manure storage? - We we're irrigating out of outdoor storage. So. Well, there's not that much rainwater. But we're using (indistinct). So it's way less dense, more liquidy. But the phosphorus and solids are precipitating out and mineralizing in the bottom of pit. So then we end up with a watery high nitrogen on source of nutrients, which we can put on higher phosphate soil and meet whatever percentage of the crop needs we want to. So basically, we're covering all the necessary and minus what we're using for a sterile fertilizer with the corn planter in those fields where we're irrigated. (indistinct talking) Nonexistent. We're using drop nozzles. My wife is from the city. We irrigate all the way around our house and she rarely notices when we even do it. So that's amazing how that works. There's houses all over through where we're doing and we don't really get any complaints on that. It has to be sitting in that lagoon and precipitate out to not have that odor. And then we validate with SAP analysis and tissue testing to make sure that we're not shorting ourselves on nitrogen. - [Speaker] With the irrigation, do you think the move finished your manure enough to get it through a pivot? - You can dilute manure, but if you've got, you know, we're going through drop nozzles. If you don't screen it enough, you're going to plug your dropping nozzles. We've irrigated through just travelers. You can irrigate about anything through that. You do get a lot more odor with that. But I mean, even the cow manure, if we're not filtering it, going into the pipeline and then at the tip. Poor Arnold's in his rain suit and clocking tips all day long and that's no fun. - All right, I think we got time for one more question. Anything else? Yeah. - [Speaker] This one's for Dana. I guess, when you say (indistinct) and everything, So does that include, like, (indistinct talking) How does that affect us now? - So yeah, it includes the natural gas you're making. The RIN at the federal level and then stack with a state level policy like California's. Today it's probably 30 to 40% RIN. Eh, maybe 30% RIN. 60% LCFS and the rest would be natural gas, are kind of the noise. On the federal level, I don't see things changing. And on a state level, California may revise their policy, but since California has created that LCFS policy, you've had six other states adopt similar as well as some provinces in Canada. And New York just announced some action last week. So state by state, there's going to be changes in those policy, but the demand probably isn't going away. And then the voluntary side seems to be swinging up quite dramatically. So I think all in all, the low carbon piece is unstable. I don't think anybody would perceive it going away, but it's going to take time for that market to mature and stabilize and we're going to have volatility like we're in right now, where prices are up, prices are down, but there is investments still being made by a lot of big players today. So I think the idea is here to stay in some form or fashion. - All right. Well, let's thank our group for this afternoon. These were presentations. (indistinct talking) (upbeat music)